🎙️72. What an Authentic Job Search Looks Like with Ryen Macababbad
the spiritual 9-5 podcast transcript
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Episode Published on April 16, 2024
Transcript:
Intro Music 🎶
I believe that working can be one of the most spiritual paths that we walk.
Whether that work is turning your passion into a business, or sitting behind a desk for eight hours a day, or anywhere beyond and in between. And yet, we often take the way in which we show up to work for granted, even though it's where we spend the majority of our time.
Here on The Spiritual 9–5 Podcast, we talk about that. We talk about entrepreneurship, we talk about the 9 to 5, we talk about what it's like to be multi-passionate, and talented, and inspired, and also utterly demotivated.
We are here to support you in your work, whether your work is sacred to you, or just something that you do to get by. We are here to help you see and know yourself a little bit deeper, and to inspire you to show up no matter what it is that you find.
I'm your host, Marie Groover, and like you I am as multi-passionate as they come. I'm the founder of two businesses that are here to bring the soul back into the office. I, too, work a 9 to 5 in corporate tech.
I'm a surfer, a writer, a philosopher-artist, if you will, and I'm so excited to bring you this episode today. If you haven't, please leave the show a 5-star rating, and if this episode resonates, consider saving it and sharing it with someone you think it would resonate with too.
Intro music fades 🎶
Marie Groover: So today we are here to talk about navigating layoffs, termination, and the job market. And so I wanna kick off actually with just asking you a couple of questions, like, what was your favorite job or role favorite that you've ever had and why?
Ryen Macababbad: I think that my favorite job was really the one that I left Microsoft for. And I say that not because, like, I didn't absolutely love the teams that I had prior to that, but the reason why I loved that job and that team was because it was the most diverse team that I'd ever been a part of.
So I'm in IT. I've been in IT since 2008. So I'm used to being like the only woman in the room a lot of the time, and I'm used to being the only person of color in the room. I can't say that I'm used to being the only queer person in the room because that's actually pretty prevalent in the industry. Woop Woop! But I'm also, like super super open about being neurodiverse about ADHD and autism because I will consistently use closed captions. Because my brain blips.
So this team, it was the dream child of a woman named Kimberly Price–shout out! She used to be at Microsoft and I met her because of Blue Hat which is a Microsoft security conference where I got a chance to help out with making a food drive. And it was like a whole last minute thing, but it was it was super awesome, and I felt, you know, like I got to give back to the community and everything.
Kimberly built this team where there were, like, three female managers, and all of them were some sort of diverse. I mean, they're obviously were all female, but there was ethnic diversity, there was orientation diversity, and I mean I was present, so like all of those things were were absolutely true. But it wasn't just me, right?
And then the teams under those were also all diverse, and we're talking about, like, neurodiversity, ethnic diversity, gender, orientation, religious beliefs, it was amazing! And it was a global team, so we had people from outside of the country that were on our teams. And we worked together so well.
And I told people that, you know, that I speak very directly and that what I say is what I mean, that there's no hidden agenda or hidden message underlying the words that are actually coming out of my mouth. And that did not offend anyone, that like I didn't have to play any games with, ‘okay what are you going to think that I'm saying that I'm not saying, but you think I'm saying, because you're used to passive communication’. So that was, that was probably my favorite team. It was super high performing.
Before that, I think, like all the teams that I've managed have been my favorite teams. I mean, yes, I have to say that because like otherwise I, you know, my former directs would, you know, probably kick me. But, I have been so, so fortunate and rich in, in just ability, intelligence, kindness, and like some of the smartest people that I've ever met have been on my teams. I've gotten the opportunity to promote people above my level. Like, let me tell you how rewarding it is to be like a level 64 at Microsoft and promoting someone to a level 65. Or being a sergeant in the army and promoting somebody to be a staff sergeant. It is so rewarding because it's like you helped this person to be successful, and now they are, you know, the Padawan is surpassing the master, the Jedi. Right? And I just love it. I think it's awesome.
MG: Oh, man. I love this so much. I can tell that you care deeply about people who report to you. I think people in general, but most especially people who report to you.
And I wanna say that this is rare to find somebody who, in management, or not in management, but in management who genuinely, you know, wants you to excel, not just for their sake, but for yours. I think that's really beautiful. And I think, again, like I said, I think it's really rare. I think that a lot of folks will say that they want the best people, but they really mean the best people as long as they're not better than them or as long as they're not outshone, you know? So I really, really, really appreciate that.
RM: I agree, I very much agree. I've experienced this, so yeah. But I really do subscribe to the servant leadership mentality. And I think that all managers should be leaders, unfortunately they’re not. Just like not all leaders are managers, people managers, and that’s totally fine too. You can lead without authority, absolutely. And I encourage people to do that. But I really feel like a lot of people look at people management as a promotion, and…and it’s not. It’s a gift. It’s a privilege. You get to coach someone, and help someone be successful and help, you know, drive their career forward. And, you know, when they look good, you’re gunna look good! That’s just the truth of it, right? So I don’t understand, like the, I don’t understand like this mentality of like taking credit for other people’s work or, you know, trying to micromanage people. People are going to do their best work when you give them the space to do it.
MG: So true. Say more about leading without authority. What does that look like?
RM: So..haha..Simon Sinek says, “Leadership isn’t about what you can get others to do, but what you can inspire others to do.” And so like, you don’t have to be the pack leader to inspire others. You don’t have to be at the front to inspire others. You can inspire others by just living your life to the best that you can. So I…I very much believe that our remit in life is to seek happiness. Right? From happiness comes all things, you know, ‘Goodwill towards others,’ just positivity and empowerment. And, and then you’re, when you’re seeking happiness there’s always more. Like there isn’t a limit to how much happiness you can have. Right? And so, so you're never just, like, stagnant. Which that sounds, like, terrible for me, like I love just going, going, going.
But, so, when you’re not a people manager, and, but you are somebody who people respect their opinion, where they respect your work, you don’t have to have authority to have people turn to you and say, you know, “Lead this project.”
Or to, like something happened in the military where somebody who outranked me by a lot, wanted me to do something that was inherently dangerous, and I knew that, but they outranked me by a lot, but I needed to do my job. And, and I needed to do it safely. And so, you know, basically, what I did was I just, I leveraged the people who had that faith in me and knew by my reputation, by my work ethic, by the brand that I had built for myself that I knew what I was talking about, and that I, you know, I was a subject matter expert. And they just provided that air cover for me. You know?
And I didn’t have to worry about getting on the wrong side of someone, because I had people who were equal or more powerful than those folks, backing me. Because I demonstrated to them that I was capable, that I was honest, that I had integrity, that I took accountability, and that I had a really good work ethic. And also that I’m just absolutely insatiable when it, is learning things. I can’t, I cannot learn enough. So, I’m always digging into things. And that was, that’s always been good in every role I’ve been in. Because I learn more. I learn more than what my scope is, which allows me to kind of influence other things that are maybe tangentially related to what I do.
MG: You are someone that, as I’ve come to know, you have just such a rich network and group of people who support you, always. From so many different levels, from so many different places, and I know that this is not an accident. And you said something to me when we were talking last week about how even when it comes to searching for jobs, you know, most of your success has been achieved through others. And as you were just telling this story, that’s what I was thinking as well…is from my perspective, you know watching, and witnessing, and observing you, one of your super powers totally is leveraging other people.
And so, I’m curious because, I think we all need this…I think we all need this community and when we try to do things on our own we can only go so far. And so I would just love to inspire people, and give people some insight into how you’ve built your network, how you’ve connected with so many people, how you’ve gained so much support, and how other people might do that for themselves, too.
RM: Yeah, that’s…that’s great. So, I will lead with a resource. There’s a book called “Give and Take” and it’s by Adam Grant, and I love this book and I recommend it to everyone. And it basically goes over like that there's three types of people in the world. There are givers, there are takers, and then and then there are givers.
So I know I said givers twice, but there are givers who give of themselves so much that their cup is empty. And then they run out of things to give because they have burnt themselves out.
And then there are givers who pour back into themselves, and as their cup overflows, they give to others. So they actually have the ability to give more, for longer, because they are continuing to fill their cup, so it's continuing to overflow.
So I think that I've always been someone who, who wants to help others, but I have not always been someone who created healthy boundaries around that. Around that assistance that I would provide to people. And so, I think learning to do that has really actually helped me because instead of burning out, I've continued to be able to help people.
And you know that, that's actually the secret, the quote unquote secret to my success is I give to others. That's the secret. Because when somebody says, “Hey Ryan, I need help with this defender for office thing,” and I'm like, “Well, I'm Defender for Endpoint. I don't, I don't know, I'm not an expert on Defender for Office, but you know what? I bet I can find you an expert on Defender for Office.” And, you know, I did this a lot with my customers and I would get them connected into the people that they needed to connect to.
And so, like, part of my network during my job search has even been, like, my former customers, like looking out for me. The relationships that I've built with vendors, you know, like it, it is so easy for me to give a shout out to, you know, some company that did something really excellently. It's so easy for me to do that and then, you know, that spreads out to my network, that spreads out to their network and it's a ripple effect.
Well, you know, with that it was like I have account executives reaching out to me and saying, “Hey, you know, one of my customers is hiring for this position that I think you'd be really good at. Do you want me to make the connection?” And like, “Yes, absolutely, thank you so much! I really appreciate that.”
MG: Mhmm
RM: I think that's the biggest secret is that I'm just constantly giving to other people, but I'm giving my overflow. I do my best to protect my own spoons, so that I don't run out for me, for my family, for the things that are most important to me. Because, if anything that I'm doing is impact, negatively impacting those things, then then that's not my path to happiness. Right? That's, that's the opposite of of, you know, going down my path to happiness. So, there's that.
And then I guess the other thing is that I think that it's really important to show appreciation for people and what they do, do for you. I think a lot of people miss this when they're, you know, seeking mentorship or coaching, you know, and not showing that gratitude. I have had some incredible mentees that have continued to reach out to me today even though we're not actively in a mentor / mentee relationship. And that has established a lifelong relationship because they have shown such gratitude to me for things that, you know, were relatively low lift on my side, but were life changing for them, right? On their side. And so that is so rewarding. It's so rewarding.
MG: Oh my goodness. I love this so much. Okay. Next question: What job or role taught you the most about yourself and why?
RM: That would have to be the army. So joining the army was the best decision I ever made. And I stand by that. Even through all of the challenges and trauma that I've been through, I stand by that.
And the reason why is because at 22 years old, I had no direction, I had no structure, I had no discipline, and if I had continued down that path, I would not be where I am today. Joining the military provided that structure, provided that discipline, and gave me the opportunity, the time to find my direction. Because I tried so many different things. I went through like four different programs before I finally fell into tech.
And I mean, so that that's like four different programs where I, you know, quote unquote failed. I mean, I learned that they weren't the right thing for me. And so in my book, that's not a failure. It's just, you know, you try on a T-shirt, it does not look good. You, you go to the next one. That's, that's what that was for me. Okay? Yes, it was uncomfortable when I tried it on and I did not like the way it looked on me, but I learned a lesson. I moved on to something that was comfortable and that I love.
So, yeah, the the army taught me to be more disciplined to have, like I’ve always had a really good work ethic, but I haven’t had a lot of direction or ability to ask for direction. And that’s something that I learned as well. But the thing, the thing that I would say is that I’ve learned about myself the most, was when I went through deployment in Afghanistan, my identity was completely shattered. Everything that I knew of myself, everything that I thought I knew of myself, it was broken down, beaten down, set on fire, like whatever imagery you want to give it, like, it was implosion. So I was, I was messed up. By the trauma that I experienced both in Afghanistan and after Afghanistan, and before Afghanistan. And so I spent the next, like…ten years learning, re-learning who I am. Rebuilding myself into the person that I want to be and, and really learning to love myself as I am, instead of, you know, some future image of me.
Like I am, today, a person that I love, and tomorrow I will also be a person that I love. And so, you know, like I’ve made mistakes in the past and I don’t love that about me, but I can give myself grace because everybody makes mistakes. And I have made my share of them, and I will continue to make my share of them. But, I can look in the mirror each day and not be ashamed. And be proud of who I am and where, of how far I’ve come. So I would say that, very specifically, my Afghanistan deployment was the catalyst for me learning about myself.
MG: This is great. So, one of the reasons that I reached out to you for the podcast, but I think one of the reasons that I have looked up to you and admired you in my career when we were both at Microsoft, and after Microsoft, has been your openness. I remember the very first conversation we had, at Microsoft as just kind of like a meet-and-greet informational, and you just like, you told me your whole story. I think we ended up talking for like three hours. It was some like ridiculously long call even though we had the afternoon free. And I remember I was so impressed by, but struck by, but like affected by your level of openness.
Which I will say, is not the same level of openness that many people have in the corporate world or in corporate tech. I think especially as, as people rise up in levels, right? Like, it seems like that openness goes away, and it closes and there’s like, there are these walls, and something I talk about a lot is, you know, how detrimental performative behavior can be, you know, especially as leaders. When we perform we create really toxic unsafe environments for the people beneath us because then they have to perform.
RM: Mhmm.
MG: But I’m curious, how have you developed this muscle for being so open and transparent and honest and willing to share of yourself with people in culture that doesn’t always favor that. What has your experience been and then how have you kept that spark alive?
RM: Yeah, wow, that’s a really great question. I think that, when I was in the military I had to…I had a security clearance. And part of that security clearance is, the government wants to understand like how likely it is that you can be blackmailed. And, and so, like I kind of took from that, it’s like well no one can blackmail me because I’m an open book! But the, like, so there’s that, and there’s a freedom in that. There really is. There’s a freedom in that.
So I think that a lot of people mask, and I will admit that I, even I masked. And still sometimes do. But, I don’t think that I was doing it consciously. And I say that because, although I was working remotely already, when the pandemic hit I still interacted with a lot of people outside of, you know, just my home, before the pandemic. After the pandemic, or after it kinda like, lockdowns started to happen, I did not. And when I started reintegrating into society, I realized how much energy I had actually been spending, uh, on masking. Because I was suddenly very exhausted. Like, I, I have said that I’m an introvert because being with people expends energy, it doesn’t create energy. But I never knew that to be as true as when I tried to reintegrate into society after things started opening back up again.
And now I’m very happily hermiting as much as I like. And, you know, learning to say “no” when I don’t want to go to social things. And accepting that some people might be hurt by that, and that’s okay but that’s their feelings to work through. And it's not mine to own those feelings. So a lot of, a lot of my my openness and my ability to unmask has, has been that it goes back to that chasing happiness, right? Am I happy pretending to be someone else in front of other people? No.
Is it actually going to bring me more joy to get that promotion because I, I performed, I, you know, I was who other people wanted me to be versus who I wanted to be? Or would I find more joy if I could be my authentic self and, and still get that promotion. Or still you know make those connections.
And once I started investing in really valuable relationships where my time, my energy, my feelings were respected, and it was reciprocal – I respected their time, their energy, their emotions, and you know I stopped taking responsibility for other people's emotions – I started really being able to have very deep and very close relationships with people because they were completely authentic. I wasn't pretending, and they weren't pretending.
And, you know, like if people can't accept you for who you are, then they don't deserve who you are. And, and that's okay. It's it's not that you're missing out. So it's, it's really about turning the thought process around. You're not missing out. They're missing out. They, they can't accept you for who you are. Who wants? Nobody. No. Don't don't pretend to be someone you're not. Because it's not worth it. It's not gonna bring you happiness, and and, you know, you're never going to be able to do your best, pretending to be someone else because your capabilities are your capabilities. And, you know, the pretend you is is not ever gonna be able to meet that.
MG: I'm writing that down right now. That's so good. You're never going to be able to do your best pretending to be someone else.
RM: I love it.
MG: All right. I promise we're going to talk about layoffs and terminations and looking for jobs. Cause like, I know that that's important too, but something that I…I talk about a lot and I will kind of get on my, I don't know, podium, whatever whatever the saying is a lot about…
RM: Soapbox.
MG: Soapbox. Yes. I'm on my soapbox a lot about authenticity and leadership and you know, how being ourselves actually doesn't hold us back. And I feel like there's a very real fear of ‘If I am actually seen, if I am actually witnessed, I am not safe. I will not get promoted. I will not be respected. No one will trust me…”
When I think it's the opposite. Right? It's when we are more and more and more of ourselves and when we are more and more and more open, like, we realize that it is safe and that we have that safety. Because, like, in corporate, the worst thing that's gonna happen is, like, maybe you'll be embarrassed in a meeting. Maybe you'll get, I mean, maybe getting fired is a pretty not not great thing. But, you know, then it's not the right place to be in. You know? I think what you're saying is, like, do you wanna constrain yourself for a job? Or do you wanna be all of yourself and have a job that you love and become the leader that you wanna be and still get promoted and be respected.
RM: Yeah.
MG: And I think we sometimes feel like we can't have all of that when in truth, the only way to have all of that, from my perspective, is to start with being the self. Right? Like start with being authentic. And you said something earlier that I think I love so much. You said that being an open book is liberating. And I have found the same thing. You know, when I was younger, the way that I learned to cope and be in the world was to be perfect. It was like perfectionism all the way. It was like, no, I don't have ADHD. I'm perfect.
No. I, like, I can get all As and I can work four jobs and I can do all these things. I'm I'm I will do everything. I'll do everything right. And I will be exactly what everyone else wants me to be so that I can earn love from other people. Right? Like, and that’s essentially what I was doing.
And I hid so much stuff about myself. I had like, there was so much shame and so much guilt, and I would hide all these things, and then one day, I just started talking about them. And I think, yeah, there's so much wisdom and in disassociating the memory with the emotion.
But also just when we name things, I think the shame goes away. Right? It's like eventually as we talk about it, the shame dissipates and we realize like, “Oh, this is normal. Oh, I'm just human.”
So there's that. But then on top of that, when you're not hiding anything, there is a freedom that exists in that you literally never have to expend any energy on filtering. It's just like that is gone. And suddenly you're just like, I can just respond to life as life unfolds in front of me, which…
RM: Yep.
MG: I feel like is a whole different kind of joy that exists.
RM: Yeah. I totally agree with that. And, you know, just in case you didn't know, that is very common for, a very common experience for girls with ADHD or or autism, and it's very not widely studied. So it never really made it into the DSM-5 on, on diagnosis. So that’s why so many women go undiagnosed and or, or are diagnosed later in life.
Because it’s, it’s perfectionism. You could not have done all of those things, you could not have done all of those things if you didn’t have ADHD. I’m just, I’m saying, there’s just no, there’s no, there’s no way. I don’t even know if you have a diagnosis or not, and you don’t need to share that, but there’s no way that you could do all of those things without it. There’s just no way. Because, you know, the human brain, when it’s not, you know, an ADHD brain, it rests. Uh, it actually rests.
And you know, like, there like have been, you know, studies where they’re doing, is it ECG? I think it’s ECG, it’s a fallograph or something [correction: EEG (electroencephalogram)], where they’re looking at, like, the energy in your brain, and the signals that are firing in your brain. And like an ADHD brain, like look it up. An ADHD brain is like it it doesn’t, it doesn’t stop. And so, you know, that’s why you, you, it’s a superpower. It really is. Like it can absolutely burn you out. But you can absolutely leverage it as a superpower.
Just don’t, you know, shame yourself. You don’t have to be perfect. Nobody, nobody will ever ever succeed at being perfect. Your, your imperfection is perfection.
MG: Hmm, yeah. Oh I love that. And I do have a diagnosis, by the way, and I think you’re right. I think ADHD is totally a superpower. But I wasn’t diagnosed until I was older, and what I will say, it was such a relief. To, to notice things about myself that were definitely not perfect, that no matter what I did, I could not not do those things. And then at some point I could say, “Oh, yeah, I have ADHD. This is normal. It’s okay for me to be this way. I don’t need to fix this. I don’t have to keep, like, fighting with myself or yelling at myself.” Oh this is so good, whew. A little tear, haha.
Okay, let’s talk about, let’s talk about layoffs. Let’s talk about termination. Let’s talk about the job market.
RM: Sure, sure.
MG: Yeah!
RM: Go!
MG: Yeah, so tell me about, yeah kind of give me a run down of, of just some of your recent experiences, or the recent season in your life navigating…because you’ve both experienced recently a layoff and a termination, and a job hunt. So, can you walk us through some of what that experience has been like, and what has been helpful, what you would recommend to others who, you know, are experiencing that right now considering the current state of the world?
RM: Sure.
MG: Yeah.
RM: Yeah for sure, so one of the things, I’ll say this first. One of the things that was a very real fear for me when I was transitioning out of the military was, “What if I end up homeless again? What if I can’t pay my mortgage?” You know, “What if I can’t get a job? What am I gunna do?” I was scared to be homeless again. And I thought that I would have gone through that same fear when I got laid off, but, I really didn’t. I really didn’t. I got laid off in, in June, so then, like I had an entire, like of, like, of all the times to be laid off, like, that’s the time to be laid off. Because you know, you, you could just take a break. So I took a break for like three months, before I started my active job search. And so, and it didn’t take me that long to find a role after that. It was maybe…six weeks? I would say, of actual job hunt. And I, I know that I’m speaking from a place of privilege, because there are a ton of people who are out there, and they are struggling right now. And I, like, so feel for them, in, in their job search.
And I am not working right now, so full transparency, I do not have a job right now. And I have actively been looking for jobs since, I wanna say the first week of January. Or second week of January. And it was a struggle, because this time I did not get unemployment right away, and I was like “Aw man, like, like that extra money really helped out and gave me more of a cushion.” I really don’t want to sell my Microsoft stock because, man! Is it, is rocking right now, Right?!
But I had that cushion, because I have, I have stock, because I have investments. And so, like, if push comes to shove, like, I have a way to survive. But I know that a lot of people, like, they don’t have that privilege, that, you know, benefit. And so, I really, I really feel for them.
So getting laid off, I didn’t know what to feel.
MG: Mmm
RM: I didn’t like that my team was cut, because I, I literally left Microsoft for this team. And my former manager, she is amazing. You know, she felt really bad because a lot of us came over to be under her leadership. Cause she’s just that awesome. I’m going to shout out again KP! Kimberly Price! Kim Possible on the socials.
I felt bad that she felt bad, because I still loved that I had had the opportunity and, you know, my, my direct reports were amazing. And, like, there, there were things that that happened during that time period that I just did not agree with, but I signed paperwork and I can't talk about it.
Anyway, it went okay for me though. So I I was getting pinged all over the place. People were like, “Wait, but you just, weren't you just there, like, you weren't even there a year, like, what happened?” And I and I just told them, you know, like, the company went through an acquisition. They were acquired by private equity firm, and that sometimes means that, that budgets are cut, or I don't know, like it makes the books look good, I guess, if you have less operational overhead.
MG: Mhmm.
RM: But I mean it happens, and it had never happened to me before, but, but it was happening to a lot of people. And so I had kind of had the opportunity to learn from what other people were doing, and I heavily used LinkedIn. Actually, LinkedIn has been, like, the most used tool in my, in my job search. But I'm not just talking about, like, LinkedIn jobs, I'm talking about people.
My LinkedIn inbox was blowing up, like, people were coming to me and, you know, they like, people were asking me “how can they help,” you know, and or “hey, there's this role,“ you know, and and, like, I had one of the things that I did was whenever I saw a role that I liked or that I thought, you know, would be a good fit for me, I'd go to that company and I'd look to see if I had any connections that worked there. And then I would reach out to that person and I'd be like, “Hey! How's it going? I know that this is out of the blue, but I also know that a lot of companies have, you know, referral incentives. So I was looking at this role, it's open. I was wondering if you could, you could put in a referral for me?”
And then I would provide them with my resume, and I would provide them with my email address and my phone number because those are the three main things that they normally need. And I would provide them with my LinkedIn URL because sometimes that’s a need. And then, for some people, I would provide them with a referral blurb. Because otherwise they have to come up to, with something to say about you. Why is this person a good hire? And in this way, like, you could, you know, tailor it to, to that specific role.
And so the reason why I did that, was not to take away other people's voice, and it wasn't because I wanted them to use that specific thing. I I always said, you know, like, you can you can use this or you can change it up, you know, take parts of it that that are useful or not. You can ask me questions, whatever. But the reason why I did all of that proactively, is to remove the barriers to them doing the thing that I wanted and I was asking from them.
So it's kind of the same, the same advice that I give people who are looking for mentors. Like, remove the barriers. Don't expect your mentor to meet you somewhere. Meet them somewhere. Like, meet where it's convenient for them. Don't don't expect your mentor to shift their schedule for you. Like, be flexible and and and find, you know, find the time that's convenient for them.
And, and yeah. So it’s, so it's kind of the same thing, you know. People, I think that most people, you know, want to be helpful, and especially if you've helped them in in the past. Right? Or you've impressed upon them or you've inspired them. Like, my goal in life is to inspire as many people as I possibly can. And it has nothing to do with me trying to get ahead, although that's what organically happens. And everything to do with, because that is what brings me joy, is inspiring people.
And, and so, so I would do this so that it wouldn't be difficult for people to to refer me. And, hey, if they got a referral bonus, woop! You know, score for them. All they had to do was take, you know, five minutes, less than five minutes to put in my name and my resume and boom. And now I have a higher chance of getting an interview than if I just hit apply. So there's that.
I did use the LinkedIn banner, uh, “Open to Work.” I found that to be, I found that to be helpful. But I also got hit up by a lot of headhunters. And that was actually kind of cool because I learned about, I learned more about headhunters than, than I had ever known before. But, like, there are companies like Cyber SN, for example, that you can go to as a person who is searching for a job. And this is like a headhunting company, but they also have a lot of very useful resources. You go there and, as a as a job seeker, you don't have to pay anything. You go in there, the thing that they do is they anonymize all of the the resumes and everything, and so the companies that are going through there, all they're seeing is your capabilities. And, and it's the, the resume isn't even, like, your resume. Like, there's, there's no you don't have to worry about whether or not your your resume is prettier than the other person's resume or more readable. Like with, this with this agency, you select all of the skills that you have, and so like everyone's on an even playing field. Right?
And they have job, job descriptions and the skills that are, are, you know, for each job, and they have salary expectations for each job. Like, it's super awesome. But what happens is that when there's a match, when, when you get hired through one of those places, then that agency gets paid. And so, like, when I, I figured that I was gonna get laid off, there was a lot of speculation that, around being acquired that we, like, it wasn't clear, made clear to us, that that we were actually being acquired. But I I felt like, I felt like it was, like it it was the case. So I turned on my open, open to work banner for recruiters before I even got laid off. So I was already, like, job searching.
And then, my termination. So, that was actually kind of ironic because I had planned a trip to Chile to visit my spouse who had just had surgery and was recovering. And, and so I had planned this trip, I had planned to work from Chile remotely. And so, like, I knew the, the remote work laws in Chile already, and I knew that me working there wouldn't cause any tax implications or whatever for, for the company. And I looked, I read every single policy that they had in the policy library, looking for something that prohibited this, and I did not find it. So I had planned to work there, but at the last minute, I was told by HR, they don't like to be called HR, but “Coworker Services,” I was told by them that I I could not work from there. And they said, and they said, you know, “Please don't work from there. We'll work with you to ensure you have the paid time off” and all that, I was like, “Oh, okay.”
It was much more involved than that. But what had happened kind of around the same time was that my manager was inferring things into the things that I said or inferring tone into the things that I typed that I had not intended. And so, like, I'm very open, you know, I said, I am ADHD. I suspect that I'm autistic as well. I am pursuing that autism diagnosis with my, you know, health care provider, and, and, you know, like, there are things about how I communicate that come along with that and which is why I, like, one of the reasons why I suspected it. Right? So I'm a very direct communicator. It used to be kind of bad when I was younger because I would say things and, that were socially unacceptable. Like, “Why do you have so many stretch marks?” That's not that you're, you're supposed to ask somebody.
And at thirteen, as a female, you should already know that, but I did not know that until I was informed afterwards that that was rude. And…and so, anyhoo, I told her this, and, and she would say things like that I was making assumptions when I was making statements on on, like, recommendations I had based off of my experience and expertise and the thing that I was hired for. And then, like, would say that I was being snarky and, like, I don't know how to be snarky. That is not me. I, like, like, when, when are people snarky? And can somebody give me an example of what snarky is? Because, like, I love sarcasm and I will use sarcasm. It is something that is extremely fun for me, but I have learned sarcasm. But snark, I don't under I don't understand snark. And it was so hurtful.
It was so hurtful to me, to be seen that way, when, when like I did not intend that. And so, like, I kept getting my language corrected, like, over and over and over again. And I told my manager, you know, I, I'm autistic, and I'm a direct communicator, and I need for you to try to take the things that I say at face value rather than inferring meaning. Because I don't know how to predict what inference you're going to make.
And like this kept happening, and so, and I was going on this trip and I said, when I get back, I'd like to talk to you about whether or not this is a good fit for me. And she assured me like, you know, this is, you know, “I think that there is a place for you here, I think that, you know, if that, if that's what you want, like, we can work together” and, you know, this, that, and the other. And then I came back, and it was 7 o'clock in the morning. I had a meeting on my calendar with HR and my manager, and that was already, like, sus.
But I was jet lagged. This is, like, the day after I got back. I was jet lagged, and so I was late getting on to the meeting by a few minutes. But by the time that I had tried to join the meeting, they had already shut off my access and so the join wouldn't work.
And so I sent an email from my, my personal email and I was like, “Hey. So what I wanted to talk about…” because this was an HR person that I had engaged with over the whole policy thing. So I told HR basically that they weren't following company policy, before I left, because they weren't. So it it could have been that, it could have been my manager, I never actually found out, but I think that, I think that it it was my ability and the way that I speak. I feel like that was a big thing, it played a big role in, in my termination.
But it was interesting because, like, I had already, you know, mentioned to her that, like, I wanted to talk about whether or not this was a good fit. Because it did not like, it was a toxic environment for me, and I didn't I did not enjoy it. And I like, there were times when I would cry after work or daring work, and because of, of something that I was corrected on again because of, of what I said that I didn't know I said because those weren't the words that I used.
And so, like, this is actually, like, pretty emotional for me still talking about it, and so I'm trying not to cry. Mostly because I am not understandable and this is a podcast, so I kind of need to be understandable. There's nothing wrong with crying. Sometimes I cry because I need to cry and just, you know, it's a pressure release valve.
So it was like we were both on the same track of, of ending our relationship with each other, basically. But it was a, it was a painful experience for me…because it was like the first time that I felt like I had been discriminated against because of my, you know, quote unquote disability. Right?
So that happened and but it was like, I don't know, ten days before Christmas or something, fifteen days before Christmas, and I was like, “Okay, well I get another vacation.” So I took another vacation and it was great. And then I came back and I started doing the job search and I've been looking and, and I have an offer and I am expecting another, another offer.
And so, you know, I think like I was, I'm, I'm getting interviews. I'm, I'm getting, I'm getting past the ATS (Applicant Tracking SyStem), I'm, you know, I'm getting, I'm getting to the stage where, you know, they would evaluate. But, so I I'm not concerned about getting a job, but it was emotional for me because I felt like I was discriminated against. I think that that was hard, the hardest part for me to accept. But also like I've never been fired before in my life, in my life! And so it was nuts, but I mean it was like, well I was gonna break up with you anyway.
So, so at the same time it's like ehh, like I I know I'm saying this on a podcast that hopefully the people who have given me an offer are not going to listen to. But, you know, the thing that I've said in in, those in those interviews and which is, which is honest, but also it's professional, is that I work best in a collaborative and communicative environment, and so that's what I'm looking for now in, for my next role. And that allows me to, you know, kind of explain why I am no longer there without really, like, putting the fault on me. So they oh, so they fired me in an email. They sent me an email, and they said, “Due to your conduct over the last 6 weeks, we decided that this has not been a good fit.” So I asked them like, specifically to tell me what conduct specifically since I had not been, written up or anything. I hadn't been counseling or whatever.
MG: Mhmm.
RM: We call it negative performance meetings, 1 on ones, whatever. And they didn't, they never answered me. But so when you get fired, you don't get unemployment unless, you can prove that you weren't fired for misconduct. And so I applied for unemployment and I let them know that I don't know why I was fired. And they did their whole investigation, and they talked to them. They talked to the company, and I got my unemployment. They said, you know, “We found that you you were not fired for misconduct.” And I'm like, “Okay. Well then, Washington's an at will state, so, you know, whatever. We're good.” So, yeah, that's what happened.
MG: Oh, man. How traumatizing. I've had one experience. I wouldn't say being fired, but my very first job after college, I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I studied philosophy. I didn't know what Excel was, really. And I was a nanny for a family and I went to the Grand Canyon with them during my senior year. It was my spring break and they were going to the Grand Canyon and they wanted me to come nanny. I was like, “Hell yeah, I'll do that!” Cause I'd never really traveled.
And so I went with them and I was kind of studying the intersection of like neuroscience and ethics. And I was reading this book about the brain, and I was asking all these questions because the parents that I nannied for, Barbara, she had a postdoc and her husband was like a master's in biology. So we're just driving around in the van, and I'm asking these questions about things that I don't know. And then I, we come back from the trip, and Barbara's like, “Oh, I think you should come work for me. I think you should come work at our company.” And I was like, “Cool. Yeah!”
RM: Nice!
MG: Yeah. It was great. And so I had no idea what that meant. I, my first job, it was like a project assistant, like an education planning consulting firm. But like, truly, I did not know what my job really was. I did, you know, some data analysis and cleanup. Again, I had no idea what I was doing in Excel. Like, I'd never opened an Excel file in my life up until that point.
And so I'm pretty sure I did a really shitty job at that job. Like I did my very best. She gave me some creative work, but I, I don't think I really did a good job. There was not really training. There were six of us in the office, and I was definitely the weird girl that would come in with, like, my smoothie, just talking about some random stuff. Everyone was way older than me. I was like right out of college.
And, yeah, I probably wasn't a good fit. I was oblivious to all of it. And then one day Barbara was like, and on top of that, there was a government sequester that did decrease our funding, but I remember one day Barbara was like, “Hey, we're gonna reduce you down to part time. And eventually we're gonna let you go.”
And no one said that it was because of my shitty work. And, like, at the time, I had suspicions, but no one said that, and I didn't really know. But I remember feeling awful. Like, I remember it was really painful, and I was just thinking, “Why me?” And I was also so angry because, like, I was literally the nicest person in that office. I was so kind to everyone. And I remember there was one woman in the office that everyone used to just talk badly about behind her back. And I was so nice to her and I like, didn't engage in any of that. And, and she was like, just so cold and heartless to me when I left and so cruel. And I just remember, you know, young me being so confused. I think that was like a huge feeling. I was so confused.
I was so, I was shocked. I was just uncertain. I didn't understand why. I didn't understand why me. It was really hard for me not to take it personally. Whereas now looking back, I'm like, “Oh, of course, I was the one that got let go, of course. Of course I was. Like, I don't even think I was doing my job. Like, I don't know what I was doing in that job. So, of course, it was me.” But I remember just feeling so just bad about it and bad about myself for such a long period of time. And I know that you've done so much work on yourself, so it's probably way easier to go through termination now versus, you know, maybe how it would have been 10 or 15 years ago for you. But / and how did you, you know, work through the feelings of both the layoff and the termination? And what would you say to somebody who's experiencing that who may or may not have have done as much work on themselves?
RM: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that it's really important to give yourself grace and to stop the negative talk. Because it's really easy to say, like, “Oh, you failed” to yourself. And the more you say that, the more depressed you get, the less confidence you have, and then you show, that's what you show to the world. And then it's a self, you know, perpetuating cycle of ‘I don't have confidence.’ And so people see that I don't have confidence, and so they don’t want to hire me and so I get more depressed and I lack more confidence, and, and, and…
So I think that's, like, one of the first things, and, just being kind to yourself. Both from the, the mental health and emotional standpoint, and giving yourself, it is, it is loss. And just like any other loss, you know, giving yourself time to go through the grief cycle because you will, and knowing that you will go through the grief cycle and giving yourself grace for that, I think, was something that was really helpful for me. Because I was like, I definitely, I remember going through the anger phase.
But I I like, I'm I'm good. I I've accepted it, and I've I have so much grace for myself. But I think those two things are really, really important. But the, the other thing is, like, lean on your support network. You know, it can be embarrassing. It can feel like it's embarrassing. You can feel like you're a burden, but you're not a burden. It doesn't matter how much, you know, load you share with other people. You're not a burden. It's up to them to communicate with you how much load they can share from you, and to communicate their limits.
And so if other people that you are, you know, leaning on during this time, if they're not communicating their limits to you, that's not your fault. You are not responsible for that. People, all of us, are, you know, we have our own agency, and we're responsible for setting those boundaries, and we can't and we shouldn't put the responsibility of our emotions onto other people. Because all that does is it builds resentment and it fractures relationships. If I can't help, then I need to say, “no.” I need to say, you know what, “I really care about you. I really want to be able to help, but I don't have the spoons. I don't have, you know, the money. I don't have whatever it is. I am unable to do that.”
But what I can do is I can be a shoulder to cry on. I can help connect you with somebody. I can keep an eye out for, for jobs for you. Like, that's, that's what their job is, right, as as part of your support network, because, like, you're part of theirs. And so I think that's, you know, that's one of the hardest things to internalize is that you're not a burden. You are enough. You haven't failed. This is just another life experience and learning experience that you will get through. And, yeah, it might be hard, but don't give up. Don't give in. Don't let, you know, the negative self-talk have the loudest voice in the room because you deserve more than that. And I think that's a great place to end.
MG: I think it's a beautiful place to end. You are amazing. Thank you so much, Ryen. This means the world to me. This brings me so much joy. I appreciate you so much.
RM: Thank you!
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Thank you so much for listening to The Spiritual 9 to 5 Podcast. I'm your host, Marie Groover, and I am beyond honored that you are here. Please follow, save and rate the show. And if you can share your favorite episode with a friend, it makes the world of a difference. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to hear from you what you think about the show or my work, so don't be shy. And I'm always here to connect and support you or your business through coaching, team building and leadership development. You can find my work in the show notes.
Until next time, Big love.
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Shownotes:
Can you be your full self at work and when you’re looking for work?
In this episode, Marie is joined by Security Leader and US Army veteran Ryen Macababbad to talk about leadership, layoffs, and learning to love ourselves.
Ryan shares how her experiences being deployed to Afghanistan and navigating the world neurodivergently have informed her leadership style as a people manager in tech.
We also discuss Ryan’s most recent layoff and her current job search, reflecting on how she’s using LinkedIn, what strategies are working, and what she might do differently next time.
The episode is offered for anyone in the midst of their own job search or leadership journey. If you enjoyed it, learn more about Ryen and connect with her on LinkedIn.
Themes: Jobs | Job Search | Career | Your Truth | Neurodivergent | Layoffs | Terminations | Career Path | Corporate Tech | Mental Health | Self Care |
References:
Links:
Marie Groover https://www.mariegroover.com/
The Corporate Psychic https://www.thecorppsychic.com/
Essential Teams https://www.youressentialteam.com/
Connect on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/cmariegroover/
Join the Mailing List https://thecorppsychic.myflodesk.com/e7bmhjidj4
**The production of this episode was in collaboration with Lyndsee Nielson and Softer Sounds Podcast Studio.**
