🎙️71. How to Do Layoffs with Joel Hoekstra

podcast

Apr 12

the spiritual 9-5 podcast transcript

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Episode Published on April 9, 2024

Transcript:

Intro to the Intro

After a number of high impact years in leadership and management at some of the biggest companies in tech, like Uber, Square, and Meta, Joel got laid off. Not once, but twice. And so I asked him to come on the pod and to share his experience. Joel's story extends so far beyond his experience through layoffs.

And he brings some really solid, beautiful wisdom to the table. Like:

How to know when the writing is on the wall
What to do to prepare yourself when you suspect you may be impacted by layoffs
How to navigate the overwhelm
How to talk about layoffs and why
What Joel would have done differently,
and the one thing that everyone seems to regret about their layoff experience

This is just the tip of this episode's iceberg. And I'm so incredibly excited to bring this to you today because Joel is such an amazing human and coach, and it's such an honor to have him. So without further ado, let's get after it.

Intro music 🎶

I believe that working can be one of the most spiritual paths that we walk.

Whether that work is turning your passion into a business, or sitting behind a desk for eight hours a day, or anywhere beyond and in between. And yet, we often take the way in which we show up to work for granted, even though it's where we spend the majority of our time.

Here on The Spiritual 9–5 Podcast, we talk about that. We talk about entrepreneurship, we talk about the 9 to 5, we talk about what it's like to be multi-passionate, and talented, and inspired, and also utterly demotivated.

We are here to support you in your work, whether your work is sacred to you, or just something that you do to get by. We are here to help you see and know yourself a little bit deeper, and to inspire you to show up no matter what it is that you find.

I'm your host, Marie Groover, and like you I am as multi-passionate as they come. I'm the founder of two businesses that are here to bring the soul back into the office. I, too, work a 9 to 5 in corporate tech.

I'm a surfer, a writer, a philosopher-artist, if you will, and I'm so excited to bring you this episode today. If you haven't, please leave the show a 5-star rating, and if this episode resonates, consider saving it and sharing it with someone you think it would resonate with too.

Intro music fades 🎶

Marie Groover: Hi, Joel.

Joel Hoekstra: Hey.

MG: So we're here today to talk about a lot of things. But one of those things being layoffs and taking care of ourselves in times of great uncertainty during what seems to be a season of reductions in corporate America. Super excited to have you here. But first, before we dive into the meat, can you tell us your corporate career story? Where did this all begin?

JH: So it's been a little bit of a winding journey, I guess, as, as most people's careers are. I'll be honest, I didn't come from a path where I, like, had a ton of direction maybe, you know, from, like, my origin system, my parents, and all that. I was just kinda like, go to college, get good grades, and, like, the rest will take care of itself. So, when I got out of school, I really didn't know what I was gonna do. And I ended up at an environmental company, waste management. Mostly because my father worked there. So he was able to give me referral to get in the door. And I ended up working there for about four and a half years. And by the end, was quite miserable and wanted something else.

And thankfully, I learned to start to network and had a friend refer me to Uber, which was, like, growing quickly at that point. It was 2015. And that kicked off about a decade of my life in tech. So I was at Uber for just over 5 years. I started there in Chicago. It's where I'm from, where I grew up. And then I moved to the Bay Area in 2017 to work in a new role in HQ, kind of plug into the tech world over here on the West Coast.

And I loved being a part of Uber. It was so much fun. There was so much growth. I was specifically on UberEats, which was like a start up within the company. So it was a lot of, like, figuring things out, a lot of autonomy over your work. We were launching markets on the West Coast, like in Phoenix and Arizona, Nevada. And then 2020 hit, and the pandemic happened, and everything came to a standstill. Surprisingly, except for UberEats. Right? Food delivery. People are still doing a lot of food delivery. Yeah. We like, non-contact delivery.

So we knew layoffs were gonna happen, but I was actually feeling surprisingly safe, and then I was impacted. That was really difficult for a number of reasons, but mostly just because it felt like the rug got pulled out from underneath me at a place that I really enjoyed working at. You know, it just hit 5 years. It earned, like, my company sabbatical. I'd just gotten my first internal promotion after 5 years of working there.

So I felt like a lot of the factors pointed towards, like, me being a pretty decent employee to keep around. So after, after the layoffs, kinda had to, like, pick myself up and figure out where I wanted to go next. I knew I wanted to stay in tech, so I found a role at Square in program management. I went actually back to an IC role.

And in a weird way, and I don't want I know, I know this can be a privileged perspective because layouts are really difficult and they look different for everybody, but in a weird way, after I kind of processed through a lot of the feelings around it, it was kind of helpful for me because it it gave me confidence in myself. It was like, you know, everybody deals with impostor syndrome, and I think I had a lot of that at Uber of, like, how did I get here? People are gonna find me out. I don't belong.

And then once I was shown the door, yeah, I think I had, like, a good amount of opportunities and, like, was proving to myself that, like, I did belong and wanted at other places. So, yeah, I worked at Square for about a year and a half. I wanted to move into people management and wasn't really seeing a pathway for that at Square, so I left to go to Meta. I was managing a team of program managers focused in risk and payment operations. And I did that for about a year and a half as well before I was laid off in 2023, May, I think, around the similar time. And then I decided I was not gonna go back to corporate and I became a coach.

Right now, I'm branding myself as a career and leadership coach. Maybe that changes down the road, but, yeah, I'm just a coach. So I've been doing that for about seven or eight months now.

MG: Congratulations! Welcome to the light side. Let's talk about layoff number one. You said you didn't see it coming. Looking back now, would you have seen it coming, or was it still just like, oh, no. This is, was the rug was just pulled out? And then how did you process through all of it?

JH: Yeah. I think…I still wouldn't have seen it coming, but having navigated layoffs and kind of all of us having a better understanding of what they look like with the mass tech layoff we've all seen in the past few years. I think I would probably have a more prepared approach.

Because it was like a date that we were all heading towards. We knew it was gonna happen, and they were gonna be announced on this date. And I was totally unprepared. I mean, I was unprepared in, like, having everything organized from, like, you know, access to my accounts from an external place, making sure I have anything that's important that I'd wanna take with me, like 401K stuff, wellness stuff, FSA. I was, like, very caught off guard.

And, you know, once layoffs are announced, you're pretty much shut off from the systems. Not that that was, like, you know, you could figure it all out, but I yeah, I think it's really helpful to prepare. And the second time around when it happened at Meta, I was very prepared.

MG: Oh, man. Okay. So this feels overwhelming, by the way. Like, I can imagine marching toward a date, feeling like I'm not gonna be impacted, feeling like it's all gonna be good. And then all of a sudden being like, oh, shit. It's not good. And the rug is pulled out from under you. It seems overwhelming to not have the things, you know, to not have access immediately to the things like, you know, that you might would have prepared before.

So what would you recommend to somebody who maybe the writing's on the wall, which we'll talk about, because I wanna talk about what the what that writing looks like, but how do you prepare for a layoff if you're internal? What are things that you can do?

JH: I think just, like, take care of yourself. So I am an advocate for, like, a little bit of a selfish approach in a certain sense. So make sure you are personally prepared. Actually, one of the cool things that happened for my second round of layoffs that happened at Meta is they literally had, like, a working Google Doc that the whole company had access to. I don't think it was started by Meta. Keep in mind, it was, like, employee led. And it was like, here's what you should do to take care of yourself.

Like, download your pay stubs. Make sure you can access your 401K account and, like, your health care. Make sure you have, like, your password, your login, all that stuff. Make sure you're, like, claiming your FSA. Like, all of that, like, stuff that will eventually run off, run out. We had, like, a wellness benefit. So, like, hey. Hey. You're an employee. Use it all. Yeah.

And then I think, like, thinking about what you would want if you were impacted. Like, taking maybe a look at your finances, thinking about what your runway might look like. I mean, each layoff is so vastly different. Some are surprises. Some are coming. In my case, both companies announced a date that they were coming.

So we all knew I think Uber announced it, or it was, like, widely known because rumors had leaked. But we all knew the date that it was coming. And so knowing that, and maybe having an idea if there will be severance and stuff can help you kind of prepare. But, like, financially, thinking about what it'll mean, healthcare related, thinking about what it'll mean preparing for that. I think start to re-engage with your network. Like, start to think about, like, who you maybe used to work with.

Think about, like, if you wanna jump right into interviewing. Think about if you wanna do interviewing while you're still working there. I, again, it's a lot to process. It's really overwhelming. For me, at least the second time when I kind of thought I was gonna get laid off, I didn't wanna be interviewing. I didn't wanna, like, be going through all that. Well, I was just because I knew I wasn't gonna go back to tech, but I kind of just made sure I had all the boxes checked for, like, everything internal that I needed access to when when the day came. And then from there, I just figured I would probably take some time for myself after the layoffs happened to just kind of refresh and, yeah, maybe travel, whatever.

MG: Yeah. So after the first layoff, did you get a severance?

JH: Mhmm. I can't remember how much it was at this time, but I did. Yeah.

MG: It’s okay, You don't have to share that. Like you said, layoffs are so vastly different among companies. And then I think even severance packages vary completely between, like, how long you've been there and like the company that you work for. And it's important to think about as you're preparing. I one time read that when we prepare even just visually in advance of something potentially terrible or life altering to happen, we're more likely to act of a sound mind. Or act from a sound place versus, spiraling out or, or reacting or freezing.

And I think, you know, layoffs can be, I think layoffs can be really traumatic. I think like leaving a company, whether you choose to leave or whether the company's made the choice for you, whether it's a layoff or termination or you or you quit, it's a relationship that's being ended. Right? It's a relationship that's being severed. And so working through that and preparing yourself for that is really important.

I think we, I think it's underrated. I don't think we talk about it enough. But / and back to this visualization technique. I was reading that if we visualize what we'll do in advance, even just that is enough to keep us feeling a little bit more psychologically sound and safe. So I can imagine in a scenario of being laid off unexpectedly or expectedly, just having a plan might make you feel a little bit more equipped and a little bit less overwhelmed. Right.

Because, yeah, the overwhelming, the overwhelming feeling that I feel as I listen to this is overwhelmed. It's like, oh my God. What do I even do? Where do I even begin? There's so many things to think about. And at the same time, now I have to figure out how to survive. Right? Now I need to figure out what I'm going to do and how long that is. How did it feel taking some time off after the second layoff and just giving some time to yourself? How did you work through that? Were you uncomfortable?

JH: It felt nice and a little restless because I kinda knew in my heart I wasn't gonna come back to corporate. So there was this, like, really big question of, like, what's next then? Like, if not that, then what? So I listen to, like, tons of podcasts and figuring out what you wanna do with your life. And did some reading. But, yeah, it was at that point, I actually had, like, a 5 or 6 month old dog. So I did a lot of, like, dog training. So we'd go and do a lot of, like, off leash stuff, and I would just, like, listen to podcasts. We'd go out in the woods. It was really refreshing.

I didn't actually travel anywhere. But I will say through my new profession as a coach and just talking with a lot of people about their experience with layoffs, again, depending on what your situation can afford, I would say almost everyone says they wish they gave themselves more time after they were laid off to figure out what was next. It's really hard not to press the panic button and jump right back into, it's a competitive job market. I don't even know what's out there. I gotta get on this right away. Apply. Apply. Apply.

Which yeah, sometimes maybe you don't even have a good strategy, and then you're just gonna feel, like, disappointed because, you know, they're not even good applications. Maybe you don't even really wanna work at some of these spots. But it's coming from a place of fear. Yeah. I think it can yeah, sometimes it's maybe just nice to give yourself as much time as you can if you can afford to, like, a week or a couple weeks. And just get away from the job stuff. And then come back to it and think about, like, what would I wanna do next? Now I have the time and I can make a choice.

MG: Oh, yeah. Okay. I wanna dive into that. But first, what is the writing on the wall? So in your second experience with layoffs, you said that you kind of saw it coming. What were the signs? What were the things that you saw? How did you know that you and your team were likely going to be impacted? Like, walk us through that.

JH: Trying to think how I should talk about Meta as an organization. It was clear that Meta had grown a lot over the decade plus of its history. And just hired and hired and hired. And it was just a very successful company. It had grown like crazy. And so when I got in there, this was even before the layoffs were announced, but we were like a similar team to a couple other teams. I always like to say it sometimes felt like that Spider Man meme where, like, you're point like, the Spider Man are pointing at each other. Mhmm. Like, it felt like that with a couple teams internally.

And I think it had kind of gotten to a place where, you know, it felt like people were kind of, like, protecting their little pies within Meta. And even though maybe it made more sense for, like, teams to get combined or work to be shared, I don't know the history. I wasn't at the company that long, but it just didn't seem like that was the case. So, yeah, I think realizing that your, you and maybe your work, we were a bit a bit duplicative, and maybe that was unique to my situation. I think also, like, looking at, like, what is the company continually talking about as, like, their key priorities? Is your work impacting any of that? Like, are you on that stuff?

It's important to ask, like, those hard questions and to really, like, look at, like, okay, how am I in my team contributing to where the company is going? Especially in so much change with the economy and layoffs, etc.

MG: How do you feel about all of the layoffs that are happening now and just about the job market in general? And for your clients, the people that you've been working with and talking to, what do you do you help them resource themselves emotionally, psychologically from like a spiritual soul level, or just even, you know, like mentally? I don't know. What can you share?

JH: Uhh, yeah. So heavy. I think, like one of the main things that maybe gets not talked about enough is the grief that comes with losing your job. Because having a job is, like, such a huge part of, like, your day to day routine. Your coworkers could turn into, like, good friends. And maybe they are a source of, like, a connection in your life, in your daily life. Your routine revolves around your job, whether you're in the office or working from home. So much of what you do on a daily basis, maybe a bit of your identity is too intertwined with your job as well. You know, it's okay. It happens to a lot of us.

But for that to be just like one day, a switch is turned and that's no longer there for you, it's super disorienting. And I think just giving yourself time to grieve that, to grieve that, like, you won't have those same coworkers again, you won't be in that culture of, you know, whatever environment you were in, you know, you won't be working for that company. For yeah…for me, that was really hard. Like, I still feel I went to one of the Uber offices, like, a couple months ago and grabbed lunch with some friends. And I still felt, like, a little bit of pain coming back and being like you know, I was a tiny little piece of that company that, like, helped. When Uber was growing like crazy, we were working crazy hours and putting a lot of effort in. And to know, like, individually that you have contributed to a company and to kinda, like, be shown the door in that way, is really hurtful.

MG: Yeah.

JH: It feels really painful. And so acknowledging that, I think, can be helpful. And then just giving yourself time and space and, you know, whether it's talking to old friends, talking to old coworkers, reconnecting with folks, maybe talking to a therapist. For me, that was really, really helpful. Honestly, I, my first layoff was a mix of COVID, the world getting shut down, and losing my job. And so really grateful for the therapist that I worked closely with through that time. It's really helpful for me. I think just taking it slow, being easy on yourself, giving yourself breaks.

Yeah. Again, I would call out that most people I've talked to always say they wish they gave themselves more time to process it all. And then when you do feel ready, I think it's really important to think about what you want next.

MG: Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Okay. Is there anything that you would have done differently?

So now, you know, looking back on all the hours, all the blood, the sweat, the tears that you put in for Uber, likely a product that you really believed in. Right? I think especially when we're in startup environments, we get caught up in, we get caught up in it! Like we're drinking the Kool-Aid. It feels really good. We’re excited!

JH: Drinking the Kool-Aid for sure! I was drinking a lot of it. Absolutely.

MG: Would you do anything differently looking back on your time spent there, or do you feel good about it?

JH: Yeah. I'm sure I would love to do things differently. I think. I didn't really know how to advocate for myself. So I probably would try to learn how to do that more. Maybe look for more mentorship. I guess there were a couple of folks on my team that were impacted in addition to me, and that's pretty important to me to make sure that they were taken care of, and I'm…it was such a shock to me that I'm wondering if I did the best job as a people manager, like, preparing them. Like, I felt like, I think we're gonna be okay, but I can't guarantee. And so I'm wondering if even that sort of messaging led to more of a shock. So, I feel like if I could do it all over again, I would try to prepare them more. Which I guess kinda stinks to think about. But, yeah, still in touch with them, and they've landed on their feet since then, but…

MG: Yeah. Don't be so hard on yourself.

JH: Well, yeah, I think it's important, though. It's like, I think so many of these decisions are made so high up. It's really hard to be a like, just a human to another human during all of this. And sometimes…it unfortunately, it does fall on the shoulders of, like, lower level management to just, like, show up and be like, “Hey. I don't have any answers. And this is really scary for me too. I'm in it with y'all.” And, like, “ere's what I'm doing to prepare if it's helpful. Let's, like, let's just, like, have open space. Like, talk about, like, how are we feeling about this? How's our anxiety levels?”

We don't know what's gonna happen. But, yeah, I think it can…having the willingness, like, be authentic and to be as open as you can be. And maybe that is the advantage of being a lower level manager is you don't have any of the behind the scenes information. So you can just be that way.

MG: I love what you said: “It's really hard to be a human to other humans.” And I think you're so right because the first person that I had to fire, for example, as a manager, not the same thing, but I remember it's totally my fault that I had to fire them, by the way. It's because they were not doing a great job, and I was not confident enough to give good feedback. And so I had to learn a very hard way, a very difficult lesson of, okay, now I have to fire this person. And it's not their fault because I wasn't giving them the right feedback. I wasn't guiding them the way they needed to be guided. Right? So total regret there.

But I…I think it's really hard because I remember being in that position. And it's hard to be a human to another human when you're communicating a business decision that really has nothing to do with the other human in terms of their humanness. Right? In terms of their goodness, in terms of their value, in terms of, like, how amazing they are.

And it's…it has everything to do with what's going on in the business or the numbers or how impactful they're being or whether or not their manager's giving them feedback. Right? Like, it really has nothing to do with the person in front of you. And yet all that's really required is to be a person to the person that's in front of you. And I think sometimes our logical brains want to shift into kind of justifying or talking it down or kind of making it not as big of a thing. And we almost wanna separate from the humanness.

JH: Mhmm.

MG: Because we don't wanna feel it. We don't want them to feel we don't wanna be uncomfortable. We don't want them to be uncomfortable.

JH: Yeah. I I would almost say, like, sometimes there's, like, a pressure not to act that way. Like, almost like, is this allowed? Like, am I allowed to just, like, have an open conversation with my team about layoffs? Like, it almost feels like something you're supposed to keep more, I don't know, not as front and center. It's gonna ruin morale. It's gonna keep everybody depressed. But I feel like you gotta talk about the elephant in the room. Like, you can't just avoid it.

MG: I think this is so astute, the pressure to not always act that way. Let's talk more about this for just a second. Why do you think that is? Why do you think there is this feeling or this pressure that, you know, sharing authentically or holding real human space is not permitted?

JH: I don't know. I think I can just speak for myself. And, like, as a manager, I think there's, like, maybe a fear that talking openly and honestly with my team about this stuff will, like, be frowned upon by the people I report to. Because you can't control, like, what your team says to other peers on their teams and what gets around. And not that I personally would feel like anything wrong with the meeting we're having as we talk about, like, how do I navigate layoffs. But I mean, I'll be honest, for the second round of layoffs, when I was managing a team, I was, like, straight up telling my team, “Hey. Like, take care of you.”

Like, “I don't know, I can't guarantee anything. I don't know how it's gonna go. But the signs that we can look at aren't great. And so, you know, whatever is helpful for you, if you wanna, like, maybe take time during the week to apply for jobs, I'm totally fine with that.”

I don't know if that would be well received, but that's what I did.

MG: I think that this is really empathetic and generous. And I think that this is like the basics. I think we should all do this. We should all be able to do this. It is interesting though, because I think you're right in that when we are managers, and I think this only becomes more of a thing as people rise as managers, unless it gets addressed like at the very beginning. You know, for example, when I had to fire someone because I didn't give them feedback, I learned a very hard lesson and I immediately shifted. And I was like, I'm never gonna do that again because that felt awful. And I don't even care. Like, I don't even care what the consequences are. I'm just, I'm not gonna do that again.

And I think similarly, you know, like having to like being impacted alongside members of your team and, and not being ready for it or aware of it. Going into it the second time you did the same thing. You were like, okay, “Nope, we're not going to do this. We're going to have a real conversation about this.”

I feel like sometimes when we don't have these experiences, I think they're important, almost training grounds for us as leaders and as human beings. Because when we don't have these experiences, we almost perpetuate this feeling that we have to constantly be managing other people's perceptions of us.

I feel like that's one of the things I remember, you know, in all the corporate kind of trainings that I got, there were all these subliminal messages around personal branding and essentially managing your image with other people. And I remember at the very beginning of this, these types of trainings, I used to, one, I used to kind of load them because I'm not a big personal brand person. But two, I would get really inspired because it's I would I was like, oh, I…I have control over what people think of me. Right? Like, I just genuinely thought that. And I remember taking it to one of my friends and sharing what I was learning. And she said to me, “Marie, you cannot control what other people think of you. You have no control over what other people think of you.”

And I was like, “You're nuts. Yes, you do! Like, here are all the things that I'm learning in corporate America. Like, these are all things I'm directly being trained on. You totally can manage how other people see you!”

And I feel like there is, whether it's directly stated or kind of covertly implied, there is a culture of, you know, as you step into leadership roles or management roles, of managing your perception, and managing how other people perceive you, and managing what your image is. Which then does cause fear. Because you’re like, “Oh well if I act out of alignment with that, then what will people think? And what will that mean? Am I gonna get fired? Or will it come back to me? Or will people talk?”

JH: Yeah.

MG: And yeah, I don't know. I think there's something there. And I don't know even where that comes from or why. But I think it's just worth saying.

JH: Totally. I mean, I'll be honest. It's really hard not to ask why you were laid off. Like, no matter what, everybody says, “It's just a business decision. You were great. You were such an amazing employee.”

But no matter what, if you were impacted by a layoff, I'm sure I'm sure every person goes through the calculation of their, in their head of, like, “Yeah. But why was I chosen? Like, what personally did I do that maybe led to the decision?”

Because some of my peers stuck around. So at some point, there was, like, a decision made. I don't know if it was based on salary, benefits, location, or my percept like, you know, the perception I have at the company, or people's perception of me. So I I did a lot of that questioning myself when I was impacted at Uber of, like, “What was people's perception of me? Did I manage that well enough? Did I fail managing that?” Yeah. So it's hard.

MG: It's hard. That's so good. And you know what? I would say, I know that many managers who have to communicate or folks in HR have to communicate to people who are being laid off, that they're being let go. I think even just being able to answer that question of like being transparent about that, of like, yeah, we over hired and frankly, you just make too much money. Right? Or frankly, we just don't want people in this location anymore. Or actually, it's because your team is duplicative and we have another team that does this work and their results are better. I think any of that, even though it sucks to say and it sucks to hear, any of that would be better than just, like, you're really great, but, like, this is just what we're doing, and we can't tell you.

JH: Feel like there's some, like, legal reasons why they can't, like, be that honest with us. There's gonna be some lawyers that are like, I don't think so. But, yeah, that would be amazing.

MG: Yeah. It's…it's interesting. Something that one of my friends says is that, you know, a lot of people say business isn't personal, but she says all the time that business is personal. Right? And I think it's because we are people that are involved in business. So it is very personal, but I think also it's, it's nearly impossible not to take something personally, most especially a layoff or a termination or like reduction in force, whatever words we wanna use.

Like, I think it's really hard not to center that around ourselves and say, but why me? Or, but what did I do? Totally. Or how did I contribute to this? Or is this what I deserve? Right. It's so easy, I think, to tie that back to us as people, whether we get the information or not.

JH: Yeah. And I also think it's like talking out of both sides of your mouth where, like, you're getting all your employees to buy into your company and how amazing it is and how the difference in the world that you're making. And, like, you know, Uber, we were making transportation available for everyone, and you're trying to get people to buy into the culture and really, really invest almost on a personal level in a way.

I remember Meta redid their values in the last year before I was gone, and it was, one of them was Meta, “Meta, Mates, Me.” Personally, I think it's incredibly corny. But it's like putting the company and then your peers first. Yeah. It feels, I think it can feel like a bit like, almost like feeling betrayed when you've been, like, taught or pushed to buy in or encouraged to buy in so much, and then, oopsies, we messed up. We don't have enough money, whatever the reason, and we have to do layoffs.

MG: Yeah. Oh, this is such a good point because, yeah, companies spend, I mean, frankly, millions of dollars for employee buy-in so that employees make their work personal, so that employees are personally bought in and excited. And that is the, you know, like coming from a leadership coaching perspective, that is the best thing that you can do when you wanna get results from people is you want them to believe in the mission. Right? Like, you wanna create a movement with your mission. You don't want it to just be words on a page and yet you know, it's interesting.

So I was just talking to a friend of mine who works at a company where they're still privately owned. And so they don't share any of their earnings information. That's all just private. It's like behind closed doors. And whereas, like, when you're a public company, you have, like, your quarterly earnings calls, and everyone gets behind that. And there's something I think really excited about sharing, you know, how much money a company is making to the employees because the employees get to see, like, oh, I contributed to that in some way.

JH: Sure. Mhmm.

MG: I think there's something a little bit, like, disempowering by not necessarily sharing that because there are all these questions like why. And I think really similarly to layoffs, again. Okay. I think you're right. I think you have a really good point. Legal would not be cool with sharing the reasoning behind layoffs, but, and I think it could really help, you know, employee buy in even more. Right?

Like, if I were die hard about a company and I realized my role was completely useless, like, I mean, I wouldn't wanna, like, leave. I don't wanna sacrifice myself. But / and if I'm die hard about a company, I will understand that and I can make, I can respectfully, I can respect that decision. You know?

JH: Yeah.

MG: And now as an entrepreneur that's…that has hired people in the past for certain roles for, like, stints of time, I understood that I had so much budget, and I needed a certain thing done. And so this would be like a certain time period. Right? Like, this couldn't be forever. Or when I've hired people and I thought it would be indefinite, and I realized, okay, I don't actually need that anymore, so it doesn't make sense for me to continue paying for that. Like, me to be able to explain that to someone, which now I'm like, should I look this up legally? Like, am I doing something weird? But for me to be able to explain that to someone helps them to understand, but it also helps them to be a part of something bigger than themselves. It's almost like they get to be a part of the decision that's being made. They get to almost decide together like, okay, yeah, this makes sense. I'll apply somewhere else internally or I'll find something else versus there's just no information and then you're gone. And then all of a sudden it's like your life has changed. And then what I will add on top of that is we're in a season of layoffs. Wasn't planning on mentioning this, but we're in a season of layoffs right now. And, you know, recently I just joined CrowdStrike. And as I was going through the kind of interview process, one, I will say I felt really guilty because, like, I wasn't in the job market necessarily.

JH: Sure, okay.

MG: So those are part of me that was like, oh, shit. So many people are without jobs. Should I even be considering something like this? This feels really weird. But then, two, I was talking with mentors of mine from the corporate space who are still very much in the corporate space and in corporate tech and asking them questions about the, you know, salary and what should I expect and how to negotiate these sorts of things.

And I was hearing, you know, about how big some of these comp packages are or have been and how big some of these, like, sign on bonuses are or have been in recent months. Also knowing that some of these massive tech companies have asked their employees to, you know, not receive a merit raise or not receive a year end bonus or, you know, like to help with finances, to like conserve money. And those companies have done these big reductions.

And so it makes me wonder, it makes me feel well, like how might an employee feel getting laid off, like losing their entire salary, right? Like it's gone and all their benefits, but then knowing that maybe the amount of their salary or double or triple of that is being offered to somebody new to come in and do like this different type of role, which is a whole other conversation by the way.

JH: Probably not great. I mean, I would even, I would even maybe there's ignorance here in in this comment, but it just doesn't feel great when not alone like, not even talking about the comp, like, you've been laid off. And then, like, three or four months later, there's applications for or there there's job recommendations up on, like, LinkedIn for the company you were laid off from. Doesn't feel great.

MG: Yeah. I don't know what the answer is to this. I'm curious, though. You know, one, like, how might you coach someone through that, experiencing that? But two, what might you is there any wisdom, anything that you would share, any thoughts for leaders in that position of, I don't know. I don't even wanna ask like how transparent to be, but, you know, leaders in the position, I know that some people are just placed in difficult decisions. I know that it's not just like the responsibility of certain leaders in certain companies, but / and that is a horrible experience to be giving to the world. And I think it's really, I think it's just, I think it's just shitty, to be honest. I think it's just shitty that we're so comfortable, so blatantly not being human when it comes to this sort of thing.

JH: Yeah. It's tough. I've never been in those rooms. Right? I've never been in those rooms where the layoff decisions happen, where they're actually going through all that. So it's hard to speak to it. The only thing I can offer is, like, I think it's so much better facing the fire and being willing to have the hard conversations than to avoid it in any way that you can, where it makes sense, where legally you can.

MG: I don't know. Coming back to this concept of just being human and the human element. I love what you said about just having the hard conversations, like just walking through the fire. It can be the hardest thing to do. Sometimes it can feel like the hardest thing to do, but it offers a world, I think, of relief. And, oh, man, what I just think about is like the confusion and the mixed messaging and the mixed signals that get sent to people who both make it through rounds of layoffs and people who don't make it through rounds of layoffs. And just the processing that has to happen because of lack of transparency or because of an unwillingness to address the reality of the situation from a leadership standpoint. You know?

JH: Yeah. Like, isn't this like kind of the hard part of being a leader, like having to navigate the hard things? Like, it's not all gonna be easy. And layoffs are really fucking hard. So that's like, what what gets harder than that? Like, that's that's a part of the job description. Right? Yeah. All the way up the chain. Right? Like, how does a company respond to the to the layoffs that had to happen? What kind of accountability are they taking? Because we really haven't talked about it in this conversation, but there's still a ton of employees that are left in the aftermath of a layoff that are still working there. And they're also like, do I wanna be here?

MG: Yes. The employees who are left. I think about this all the time. I did a delivery with a team maybe six months ago, and it was like a…a beliefs workshop for a team of like eight people. And at the very end of the workshop, we weren't talking about layoffs. We weren't talking about, you know, we're talking about belief systems around actually the job title or function that these people served. Cause everybody on the team had the same job title. And at the end of our time together, this person spoke up and they basically said like, “I don't feel safe here because we've just laid off so many people, and how do I know that I'm not next?”

And their manager was in the room, and they basically said to their manager, I need you to tell me that this is gonna be okay. Otherwise, like, I…I'm having trouble just showing up. I'm having trouble being at this workshop. Like, I need to know that, you know, beyond just investing in us from a personal development level, there is commitment to the people who are here because this is just hard. And I thought it was so brave. I was just like, woah.

JH: Yeah. Kudos. Seriously. Yeah. Good for them

MG: But it also opened my eyes. Right? Yeah. And it just, it opened my eyes to the landscape that must exist at places where, you know, your friends, your coworkers, people that you've known for years are just gone all of a sudden. And then, you know, what type of messaging is there internally?

I actually brought this to one of my mentors who works in the corporate tech space as well. And I was, you know, I was like, we need to do something like, I was trying to pitch, you know, some psychological safety workshops that we could lead for the organization. And I remember their response was, you know, despite the layoffs, this particular organization was having their best quarter in a long, long time, and they're outperforming the rest of the organization. So there was a lot of really there was a lot of goodness that was happening in the organization. And his response was almost like, why can't people see the goodness that's happening in this organization? Why, you know, like, and and he's like, yes, we should do something like this, but let's focus it on abundance mindset versus, like, scarcity mindset.

And it basically, like, let's put a positive spin on this. Right? Like, let's put a positive spin on this and we'll keep talking. And, at the time I was kind of like, okay, you're the customer. Let me think about this. I'm gonna go and noodle for a little while. But the more I noodled, the more I sat with it, the more I thought, how on earth can we ask people to be positive when we're not addressing a very real experience that has happened. We're just, like, acting like it hasn't happened, and then we're expecting people to just bounce back because the numbers are looking really good.

And I just thought, like, no, we absolutely cannot have like, it's impossible to have abundance mindset when your basic needs are not taken care of. Part of your basic needs are security. Right? It's to be safe. It's to have safety. It's shelter. It's food. It's water. And when you're not when your basic needs when you don't know if your needs are gonna be met, it takes a master, like like a Buddhist monk, I don't know, to really be, like, basking in abundance mindset or really looking at all of the possibilities. And so I almost later I sat with that and I was almost like, that is such an unfair ask of the people that are in your organization. We should be nourishing them, you know, like what are we doing to repair the damage that has been made? It's almost like you cut someone's arm off, but then you're just not acknowledging that they don't have an arm. And you're just like, hey, pick up that pencil. What are you doing?

JH: Yeah, exactly. “Get back to work.”

MG: Like, like, do that? You know?

JH: Yeah, layoffs can have a huge impact on those who are left there and how they're trying to process. I did get to experience it at Meta because there was a couple rounds. But for the most part, I've always been on the other end. And it's been really interesting to talk to friends of mine, former coworkers, who have stayed. And it's this, like, weird mix of relief and, like, feeling grateful, but also feeling, like, incredibly selfish for feeling relief because maybe your friends or just good people you work with no longer have a job.

So it's like trying to, again, like, manage these difficult emotions of like, oh, thank god. I'm okay. Like, I'm glad I have a job still, especially in this economy. But, like, Joel's gone, and I feel like a jerk for feeling relief about, like, that I'm okay and, like, that they're not there. And, you know, maybe some people don't feel that way. But I think it's that can be a huge emotion to try to, like, I don't know, figure out.

And I think it's okay to also, like, it's it's more than okay to feel relief about making it through a layoff. Like, absolutely. And to not be hard on yourself for feeling that way, and to also feel grief about the loss of your coworkers. Like, both can coexist.

MG: Yeah.

JH: It probably should. Like, I hope you feel relieved about making it through unless you, like, didn't want it. May…may you know, that that's also plenty of people. I'm sure sometimes when layups come around, they're like, okay. Good. I hope I get laid off because I'd like to go somewhere else. But, yeah, if you make it through a layoff, don't feel guilty. Definitely feel grateful and relief, and that's totally fine.

And if you do have people you care about and you don't really know what to say and maybe it's a little uncomfortable and a little awkward because you're not sure how they're feeling. I don't know. Maybe give them a little bit of space, but I would really encourage you to, like, reach out and just let them know that, like, you wanna support them. Because when you're on the other side and you've been laid off, like, you know, you're still going to the workplace. You're still working with people. You're still connected. And they're now, like, in this world of, like, kind of loneliness. Like, I'm out of my own.

And so I think any message you get from former coworkers and peers goes a long way. It's really, really helpful. Just like a little bit of encouragement and support can be really meaningful, help people feel less alone.

MG: Naming what's there. This is something that's so translatable across so many scenarios. I mean, all of this, I think now is as, as I'm thinking about it and thinking about layoffs, but one of my friends, her dad killed himself a few years ago and something that her and I talked about, you know, some years after his passing was the fact that nobody felt comfortable addressing what had happened with her and talking about it head on. When the thing that she needed the most was to talk about it. And she didn't expect people to understand. She didn't expect people to like be in the same position as her, but to be able to have conversations around that, I think would have really closed a gap for the loneliness that she felt in having to have that experience by herself because people were uncomfortable. And I think the same thing happens when a leader lays off an organization or bits of an organization and doesn't address it. It's this feeling of not wanting to be uncomfortable, but not wanting to make other people uncomfortable. It's like, if we don't talk about it, it's not there.

When really it's just getting louder. And then I think the same thing of when, you know, your coworkers get laid off, feeling really horrible, but feeling also grateful and feeling relieved and having these mixed feelings, like really holding the duality of feelings, complexity of feelings, and wanting to reach out. But maybe not reaching out because you wanna give space or because you don't wanna make them uncomfortable. Like really the only antidote to all of this is to just name what's really real and true. It doesn't have to be eloquent, right? Like we don't have to be masters of talking about our feelings or masters of sharing, but you bring up such a beautiful point in that, just being honest about what's there goes a really, really long way. And it really closes the gap in loneliness. And it just makes such a huge difference.

I think about even, so I'm divorced, and I remember when I, when my ex and I decided to get a divorce, it was like one day I had a family. And then the next day, this whole family that I had was just gone. And I like, the thing that I remember more than anything is that nobody reached out to me. And I remember being like, oh, I saw these people. I saw some of these people as, like, my sisters. You know? Like, these were people that I was so close with and there's nothing. And at first, I remember feeling like taking it a little bit personally, but then I also was like, I totally understand because this is a really awkward situation. It's, like, very uncomfortable.

JH: Sure.

MG: But I realize it's just this it's the discomfort of, you know, naming what's there, of just saying what's real and true. And it's so much easier to not do it, but it makes such a big difference to just do it. You know?

JH: Yeah. Yeah. The silence can sometimes speak a lot louder to the person on the other end. Whether you intend to or not, it can…it can be kinda painful. It's still saying something even in the silence, in a way. Maybe that's not your intention, but / and, yeah, you know, like, where it makes sense. I don't wanna, like, shame people into responding to all their coworkers that have been laid off. But, like, you know, where you feel like you have a close enough relationship or you care enough about somebody that you want them to be supported, I think, can be really helpful.

MG: Yeah. Letting them know. I love that. Okay. So let's talk about post layoffs. How did you know that you didn't wanna go back into the corporate world? What contributed to that decision? Was it after taking some time away? It seemed like you kind of knew prior to the actual date of the last layoff, but yeah, how did you know? What did you know? What were you, what were you considering?

JH: How did I know? I…I'll be honest. The first time I allowed myself to even consider it was I had a really good friend who started investing in franchise businesses. But he left his corporate job behind and, like, you know, was able to afford doing that. And we talked on the phone a couple of times a week, just catching up as friends. And so I kind of had, like, a front row seat to him building his business, and it was really inspiring.

And I was like, wait. Why not me? Like, why can't I do something like this? Like, why can't I try doing something outside of, like, the safety of the corporate tech world? And so that was just kind of, like, the seed that planted. And then that, that was still why I was at Meta, like, before layoffs had been announced. So there wasn't really pushing anything pushing me out the door, but I was just like I started to entertain that idea that I could do something else.

And it's…it can take a while for that to gain momentum. Right? Because you gotta start to actually, like, believe in yourself. Like, could I do this? What would that look like? Is this possible? And it’s met with a lot of no’s. Like “no you can’t.” “Of course you can’t.” “What would you even do?” And so, yeah, by the time the layoffs happened in, like, mid 2023, I was kind of like, I don't think I can go back to tech. Like, it sounds so exhausting to me. Yeah, I remember I took a recruiter call. You know, it's, like, flattering to get, like, an inbound about, like, a potential job. It's like, oh, who me? Well, yeah, I would make a great candidate. Thank you very much.

And so then you take the call, and I was like, I have zero interest in this work. I've zero in I just, yeah, I just really could not see myself going back into tech. You know, maybe it was influenced by the layoffs. May you know? I think the kind of allure of the tech world did start to wear off after my Uber days, even, you know, working at Square at Meta. I was feeling a little more, like, pigeonholed into, like, where my career had been developed. Like, somehow I kind of, like, landed in program management. I don't really think that was ever my goal.

And then, like, customer support, risk ops, pay ops of program management. Didn't feel excited about that work, like, does not interest me at all. And I think it's, it's a lot of work that it's like a tiny little cog and, like, a giant machine of, you know, you could change that by going into smaller companies. But I just yeah. I really wanted to give it a shot. I wanted to try and design a life that I loved. I think that's a big part of it too. I I started to think about, like, what it could look like to have more control over my day to day.

And I think I just thought a lot about regret. I thought about, like, being in tech, you get paid really well, and the paycheck is nice, and it affords a lot of things. And I think I really had to ask myself some hard questions around, like, is that it? Is that, “Will I be okay not having that, but really being able to make my life what I wanna make it?” I don't know if I'm saying that right, if it's making sense, but yeah. Getting comfortable with sacrificing certain things and just to give it a shot. And who knows how it'll work out? I'm still in the heart of it. I'm still pretty early, still learning a lot, but I think just taking a swing at it and trying something new, learning new skills, learning how to build a business is feels a lot more exciting at this point in time.

MG: Yeah. Oh, I love this. I love this question of, “Is that all?” You didn't quite say that when you were talking about the money, but I remember I remember when I started thinking about leaving Microsoft, what allowed me to make the jump well, actually, my personal life kind of exploded. And so I think that was a catalyst. I think sometimes we need the catalyst, right? Like the layoff happens, we get fired, our personal life explodes. We know, but like there's something that forces us off the edge. I think sometimes that happens. That totally happened with me.

But I remember part of what made me feel okay about it and excited about it was, you know, look, thinking, imagining myself on my deathbed, looking back at my life and asking myself, “Would I be proud of what of the life that I lived?” Would I be happy and excited about the life that I lived? That was a huge contributing factor.

And I remember thinking, you know, Microsoft is really great, but I don't wanna look back on my life and realize that's the only thing I did. Or that was like the most significant thing about me, or that's the thing that people remember, or that's even the way that I've supported myself. You know, like, I just, I was like, I don't want this to be such a big part of my story. And I don't know how I've even been here for this long. You know, it was just, it was a really interesting feeling.

And I think that, something that someone said to me years and years ago, I was teaching yoga. I think I was probably maybe 20, 20 or 21. And I was debating on moving to Atlanta. And I lived in North Carolina at the time, and I was talking to a yoga teacher and I was like, should I do this or should I not do this? I have no idea what's on the other side of this door if I move. And her response to me was, “Which one would you regret more, going or not going?” And it was, like, instantly clear. I was like, oh, I have to go. Right? Like, I have to make the move because I don't know what will happen. Whereas if I stay, I still will never know what will happen.And so sometimes I think we have to find out, and I think that's really exciting.

JH: Yeah. I played out kind of like my career path in tech, too. And it felt just so unsatisfying. Like, just climb, continuing to climb, like, management layers to get to maybe something that I feel like it's somewhat respectable in. To maybe appease my ego. I don't know. It's like, nah. I don't think I want that. If I got this one life, like, come on. Let's just try something and go for it. So and I don't know how it's gonna play out, but I don't think I'm gonna regret it.

MG: I don't think he will either. I also really love what you said, you know, when you first started thinking about leaving and just entertaining the idea of, entertaining the idea of it and then cultivating the belief in yourself to do it. So I wanna hear more about what it was like to cultivate the belief in yourself to be like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna do this. I can do it. Why not me?

JH: Being inspired by other people. So I feel in a way sometimes that, like, I got the easy out. Like, I didn't have to make a decision of, like, “I quit corporate. Go me! Here's my own business.” Like, I got kicked, I got shown the door. So, like, I know this is many people's journey over the last couple of years with layoffs of, like, being laid off and then pivoting to something that they wanna build. That's definitely mine.

So, yeah, I have a coach that I work with right now. Her name is Shab, and I watched her journey, winning her job at Uber and, like, putting it out there and then going for it. And I just was super inspired. I was like, this is so cool. I love what she's writing about. I'm relating to it. I wanna do this. I mean, so is having examples to follow. It's really, really helpful.

Prior to that, I actually did my own sort of, like, calculations around, wait, could I invest in this franchise business that my friend is in, in my geography that I'm based in? And so it was just like, like building out, like, a business plan and thinking about what that would look like. And so, like, little actionable steps that, like, I don't know. I was actually, like, making progress on, like, doing my own thing. And, obviously, it didn't, it fell through. It didn't work out. But, yeah, and I think it like, once the door opened, it was I just, like, couldn't close it anymore.

MG: Building a plan, taking little actionable steps. It is crazy how much little actionable steps will show us what we're capable of. Something that I tell my clients a lot is to let go of the big picture. Because sometimes when we focus too much on the big picture, one, we can't make sense of it because, like, we just don't know. We don't know what's gonna happen, and it doesn't mean anything about us. When we look when we look at the big picture, we think, like, this one decision that we're making today is gonna affect everything. And we think that we know how it's gonna affect everything, but like in reality, we have no real idea.

JH: Yeah.

MG: Whereas, when we just get in the action, like the small actional steps, we realize like how much we're capable of and how far we can go. And I think we also realize what we're willing to do, because I think we sometimes don't realize what we're capable of doing and how far we're, we're willing to take it until we're there. And then we're like, oh, this really isn't that, I mean, it's hard. Entrepreneurship is hard. Like, I don't wanna downplay how it can be difficult, but it's difficult in, like, a mental game kind of way. It's not difficult in, like, what we do on paper kind of way. And once I think we realize how easy it can be, it, it just opens it up for like, I don't know, a new way of being and existing in the world.

And then something that I was thinking about as you were talking earlier about leaving corporate and just, you know, creating a play or running through the steps, running through a play of what your life would be like if you stayed. I sometimes think about how corporate is like this weird game that we play. It's almost like this kind of “in club.”

JH: I mean, it's all a game, isn't it?

MG: It's totally all a game. Everything's a game. But corporate's so interesting because especially, I think, tech, and then especially when you're living in, like, a tech culture, like, actually, I can't imagine, like, moving out to the Bay Area and like being immersed with all these people who are doing really similar things. It almost, like, continues to condition us that that's what we're supposed to be doing and that, like, this is how we're meant to be living. And then when you step out of that, it's almost like you realize there is an entire world in life that has no connection to this, that has no idea what it's really like to experience this. And it's, I think it's kind of liberating. So I don't know if that resonates.

JH: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of different avenues for a career. Yeah. And it's easy for inertia to just carry you through. And I think that's what was happening with me, where I was like, oh, okay. Like, this seems like a promotion into program management, managing a team. I guess I'll go into program management. And, like, that's kinda, like, how I fell into it.

And, yeah, it's like the older I'm getting, the more it felt just, like, unsatisfying. And I want to be in more, like, conscious choice around where my career is heading. Yeah. I like to ask people, like, what's your biggest fear around your career? And I think one of mine is, like, waking up one day at, like, 55 and just, like, having, just feeling totally unhappy around, like, my like, kind of just, like, gritting my teeth through the 9 to 5 to just get the paycheck so that I can enjoy life outside of it. I was like, why? Does it have to be that way? Like, can I enjoy more of my day to day than just, you know, there's that big, like, you know, work to live mindset, which I think I did have for a little bit a couple years like, towards the end of my time in tech? And it just even that started to be unsatisfying.

MG: Mmm, oh, that's so good. Okay. So tell me about coaching. What are, so you are branding yourself right now as a career and leadership coach?

JH: That's correct.

MG: Yeah? So how can people work with you?

JH: Well, my company name that I've landed on is called Common. So commoncoaching.com. And I I resonated with that or I came to that because I feel like not that I feel like In my experience in the corporate world and I think a lot of folks that I've chatted with, coaching is this sort of, like, profession that is, like, available to, like, top-end leaders at your company. Right? Like, I remember even at Uber, like, once you achieved a certain level, then you got to work with a coach. And I just, I love supporting, like, the person that doesn't, like, have it all going. But, like, isn't, like, the leader, isn't the executive, didn't, like, this probably falls into a little bit of, like, my background that I had to work through when I came into tech. I came, I went to a small liberal arts school. And when I got into tech, all my coworkers were like, I went to this Ivy League school, then I went into consulting, then I got my job and then I got a job in tech, and I was like, what the hell am I doing here? Like, how did I get here?

And so that's kind of, like, how I want to build my brand around coaching is, like, I wanna be the advocate for the people who are, like I don't know. Like, maybe doubt themselves, don't know how to find their voice, but, like, have a lot of talent. Or maybe even now, you haven't even untapped like, tapped into the talent that you have, and you're and you're looking to find it. Like, I wanna be an advocate for you. I think coaching should be made available to everyone, no matter where you are in your career journey. So that's why I call it Common, almost like democratizing coaching. So yeah. And I think I'm happy to coach anyone, really.

I haven't landed on, like, this crazy niche. I think I probably naturally gravitate towards people who resonate with my career journey. So if you've been impacted by layoffs and you want support through layoffs, you want support post layoffs if you were impacted or you weren't impacted, internal, external. If you're looking to make a career pivot, you know, I kind of pivoted into tech. I didn't even talk about that. And then I pivoted out to coaching. So love to help people with that journey, finding more fulfillment in what you do. That's fun coaching.

MG: If people wanna work with you, do you offer single sessions or are you a package person or both?

JH: Yeah. So it's important to me that you experience my coaching before you, like, work with me. So a formal relationship would be a 3 or 6 month package. I can do longer, but typically, that's where they land. But, yeah, if you want to work with me, you can sign up for, like, I call it a strategy session, but really, it's just kind of like a get to know, get to know you session. No payment required. And then we do coaching so that you can experience what it's like to coach with me and see if we're a good fit.

MG: I love that. It's amazing. Any final thoughts or anything that you wanna share?

JH: I mean, I appreciate you having me on. I think it's a really helpful topic to talk about. Yeah, that's it.

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Thank you so much for listening to the Spiritual 9 to 5 podcast. I'm your host, Marie Groover, and I am beyond honored that you are here. Please follow, save and rate the show. And if you can share your favorite episode with a friend, it makes the world of a difference. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to hear from you what you think about the show or my work, so don't be shy. And I'm always here to connect and support you or your business through coaching, team building and leadership development. You can find my work in the show notes.

Until next time, Big love.

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_____

Shownotes:

After a number of years in leadership and management at tech companies like Uber, Square and Meta, Joel Hoekstra got laid off — not once, but twice.

In this conversation, he shares his experience leaving the corporate world behind and offers advice on how to see the writing on the wall, what to do to prepare for a lay-off, and the one thing that everyone seems to regret about their lay-off experience.

The episode is offered as support and encouragement for anyone who’s ever been laid off or fears they will be. It's also a great training for managers or leaders who are working on leading through uncertainty & difficult conversations.

Learn more about working with Joel at commoncoaching.com. Or sign up for a free intro coaching session here.

References:

Connect with Joel Hoekstra on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-hoekstra/

Common Coaching https://commoncoaching.com/

Links:

Marie Groover ⁠https://www.mariegroover.com/⁠

The Corporate Psychic ⁠https://www.thecorppsychic.com/⁠

Essential Teams ⁠https://www.youressentialteam.com/⁠

Connect on LinkedIn ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/cmariegroover/⁠

Join the Mailing List ⁠https://thecorppsychic.myflodesk.com/e7bmhjidj4⁠

**The production of this episode was in collaboration with Lyndsee Nielson and Softer Sounds Podcast Studio.**